Simon Church

[pea]

These are the games when Church played with Le Fondre

That is they are both on the pitch at the same time, same minutes, same team, same defences

and Church has done better on goals

Donny---------CHURCH scored (Alf assist) - Alf scored (equal win 2 points between them)
Coventry--------CHURCH scored (Alf assist) (wins a point)
Bristol----------------------------Alf scored (tap-in from James spill,)
Burnley
Derby ----------------------------Alf scored 2 (wins a point) (Church X headed back by Karacan)
Saints
Palace
Brum
Leeds--------CHURCH scored (only goal, wins 2 points)
Brighton
Ipswich
Cardiff
Ipswich
Blackpool - --------CHURCH had a good goal disallowed
Boro
West Ham--------CHURCH scored 2

5 Goals Church (Plus a good goal disallowed)
4 Goals Le Fondre

Alf squeaks ahead if you include his 2 assists


So what is it now E-P, maybe it was muddier where Alf was running.

Alfie got an assist in the West Ham game too. I think his three assists probably put him ahead personally, but I don't think anyone would argue that any of our strikers have stood out this season, they've all been pretty much average. The one thing that does show is that even when Alfie is not scoring he at least is involved in goals with a number of assists, which should justify him starting over Church.

[Snowball]

Alfie got an assist in the West Ham game too. I think his three assists probably put him ahead personally, but I don't think anyone would argue that any of our strikers have stood out this season, they've all been pretty much average. The one thing that does show is that even when Alfie is not scoring he at least is involved in goals with a number of assists, which should justify him starting over Church.

Sorry, I was only looking at these two, and their assists for each other

Didn't think to check for other assists.

I am on record (look at Attacking Stats) that Alf, when
you factor in his assists is doing well and is the better player of the two.

That's fine, but presumably McDermott looks at other stuff that maybe
some of us don't see or don't think is important enough


What is annoying me greatly is people trying to make out Church's RFC career he isn't a decent goal-scorer.
Two years ago he was awesome for his age, scoring 1 every 185 minutes or so.

IMO much as I don't think he's Shane Long, or Doyle, (or ALF), I think he will turn out to be a much
better player than most on here seem to think. And people post that his goals record is poor, and
yet he's just TWO goals shy of Shane Long at the same age. TWO!

But then they wrote Shane off too.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Er, if they are playing together wouldn't that be in different roles? Or do you have them strapped to each other like siamese f/cking twins?

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone about something as f/cking simple to grasp as "different circumstances are different".

Walking around without falling over, eating without chewing your tongue off, all these things we take for granted must be like a challenge on The Crypton Factor for you.

Gee, I bet your offspring can't wait until you 'lift their burdon'. Family holiday in Switzerland coming up?

[West Stand Man]

Er, if they are playing together wouldn't that be in different roles? Or do you have them strapped to each other like siamese f/cking twins?

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone about something as f/cking simple to grasp as "different circumstances are different".

Walking around without falling over, eating without chewing your tongue off, all these things we take for granted must be like a challenge on The Crypton Factor for you.

Gee, I bet your offspring can't wait until you 'lift their burdon'. Family holiday in Switzerland coming up?

That would be 'Krypton' and 'burden'.

Put your offensive and ill educated fishing rod away, it isn't catching half the fish you think it is.

[Snowball]

Er, if they are playing together wouldn't that be in different roles? Or do you have them strapped to each other like siamese f/cking twins?

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone about something as f/cking simple to grasp as "different circumstances are different".

I love the way your goalposts move. Last post you were saying they played against different defences
(and obviously Church was playing against easy ones, right?)

Look, in these games they played against the SAME defence, with the same midfield and wingers
so your so-called reasons go out of the window. So now you have to switch to them playing different roles!!

They were playing the same (basic) role, that of STRIKER in a 442

Now, in those games they were playing as a twin strike force in a 4-4-2, and pretty much anyone on this board
knows that Church was meant to be the big runner/target man (even if he's not great at it), and that Alf
was meant to be the goal sniffer. Yet Church "who is shit" scores more goals than Alf "who is excellent."
IN THE SAME GAMES

I repeat I prefer Le Fondre, but your pathetic, bellicose, look-at-me-I-could-play-standup attacks
on Church deny the truth, big time.

[Snowball]

Put your offensive and ill educated fishing rod away, (E-P) it isn't catching half the fish you think it is.

I find it amusing that I get grief over "insults" yet I can be called insane
and now someone talks of me DYING, but that's OK...

Not that E-P is losing the argument has anything to do with it.
..

[Extended-Phenotype]

Er, if they are playing together wouldn't that be in different roles? Or do you have them strapped to each other like siamese f/cking twins?

I can't believe I'm arguing with someone about something as f/cking simple to grasp as "different circumstances are different".

Walking around without falling over, eating without chewing your tongue off, all these things we take for granted must be like a challenge on The Crypton Factor for you.

Gee, I bet your offspring can't wait until you 'lift their burdon'. Family holiday in Switzerland coming up?

That would be 'Krypton' and 'burden'.

Put your offensive and ill educated fishing rod away, it isn't catching half the fish you think it is.

Then why are you hanging off my line frantically searching for something to bite? You found spelling. Kerpow! Enjoy your w&nk, and mind those thorns on the bush outside my house, ok?


Snowball, if you want to claim ‘victory’, fine. Using different examples of why conditions for each striker is different isn’t really moving the goal posts, but as everyone keeps warning me – there really isn’t any point trying to discuss sh/t with you; you can’t admit you are wrong, nor will give other viewpoints the time of day.

I think that’s because you have an arse for a head, but your superiority complex could be down to any physical deformity, really. Tits for eyes? Meh, it’s all conjecture.

[Snowball]

Snowball, if you want to claim ‘victory’, fine. Using different examples of why conditions for each striker is different isn’t really moving the goal posts,
I realise I was wrong when trying to argue that their goals/non-goals were in different games and thus under different conditions but let's gloss over that
and start arguing about their different playing styles

Corrected for you.

Le Fondre and Church are strikers and expected to score a certain amount of goals.

If anything Church is the workhorse (more running, less goals) and Alf was bought to do the penalty-box chance taker.

So we should expect Le Fondre to be out-scoring Church based solely on their expected roles.

But Church 5-4 Le Fondre when they play together. Hmmmm.




E-P, the problem is that people have made their decision about Church and then squirm to dismiss the facts
that he is still joint-top goal-scorer (on less minutes) and is scoring at better than twice the rate of Hunt.

You just don't seem to get that I prefer Roberts-Hunt-Alf over Church and that I've publicly
said I groan if he comes on as sub. But McDermott plays him because up until two games ago Church
was the most effective striker in terms of getting wins.

He has played in more wins than any other striker,
He has played in less defeats than any other striker (excluding Roberts)
He is half of the best striker-scoring partnership (Church and Alf)

[Vision]

Snowball, if you want to claim ‘victory’, fine. Using different examples of why conditions for each striker is different isn’t really moving the goal posts,
I realise I was wrong when trying to argue that their goals/non-goals were in different games and thus under different conditions but let's gloss over that
and start arguing about their different playing styles

Corrected for you.

Le Fondre and Church are strikers and expected to score a certain amount of goals.

If anything Church is the workhorse (more running, less goals) and Alf was bought to do the penalty-box chance taker.

So we should expect Le Fondre to be out-scoring Church based solely on their expected roles.

But Church 5-4 Le Fondre when they play together. Hmmmm.




E-P, the problem is that people have made their decision about Church and then squirm to dismiss the facts
that he is still joint-top goal-scorer (on less minutes) and is scoring at better than twice the rate of Hunt.

You just don't seem to get that I prefer Roberts-Hunt-Alf over Church and that I've publicly
said I groan if he comes on as sub. But McDermott plays him because up until two games ago Church
was the most effective striker in terms of getting wins.

He has played in more wins than any other striker,
He has played in less defeats than any other striker (excluding Roberts)
He is half of the best striker-scoring partnership (Church and Alf)

I think "partnership" might well be the key here.

Robert's has only played two games (after not playing at all for a while) so we can't tell as yet but I've a hunch that McD probably looks at ALF and Roberts as the better composed players, more capable of linking play and bringing others into the game but they need to have someone like a Hunt or a Church to work the channels and harass the opposition.

He may well think that a combination of 34 year old Roberts & ALF doesn't have enough legs so to speak and that both players would work better alongside Hunt or Church as opposed to playing together.

[Extended-Phenotype]

But I'm not wrong, am I?

And that's what hurts you so much. That and West End Girl hanging out your arse, hungry for friends and a f/cking purpose.

I'll let you get back to not reading and then editing my posts to help you win your argument. Don't forget to multi-post in frustration, now.

[winchester_royal]

Snowball, if you want to claim ‘victory’, fine. Using different examples of why conditions for each striker is different isn’t really moving the goal posts,
I realise I was wrong when trying to argue that their goals/non-goals were in different games and thus under different conditions but let's gloss over that
and start arguing about their different playing styles

Corrected for you.

Le Fondre and Church are strikers and expected to score a certain amount of goals.

If anything Church is the workhorse (more running, less goals) and Alf was bought to do the penalty-box chance taker.

So we should expect Le Fondre to be out-scoring Church based solely on their expected roles.

But Church 5-4 Le Fondre when they play together. Hmmmm.




E-P, the problem is that people have made their decision about Church and then squirm to dismiss the facts
that he is still joint-top goal-scorer (on less minutes) and is scoring at better than twice the rate of Hunt.

You just don't seem to get that I prefer Roberts-Hunt-Alf over Church and that I've publicly
said I groan if he comes on as sub. But McDermott plays him because up until two games ago Church
was the most effective striker in terms of getting wins.

He has played in more wins than any other striker,
He has played in less defeats than any other striker (excluding Roberts)
He is half of the best striker-scoring partnership (Church and Alf)

WRONG

If you actually watched the games Church and ALF played together then you'll have noticed how ALF was playing behind Church, in the 'Sigurdsson' role, and hence wasn't getting the opportunities to be a penalty box striker.

[Extended-Phenotype]

^Ta.

[Snowball]

Le Fondre and Church are strikers and expected to score a certain amount of goals.
If anything Church is the workhorse (more running, less goals) and Alf was bought to do the penalty-box chance taker.

So we should expect Le Fondre to be out-scoring Church based solely on their expected roles.

But Church 5-4 Le Fondre when they play together. Hmmmm.

WRONG

If you actually watched the games Church and ALF played together then you'll have noticed how ALF was playing behind Church, in the 'Sigurdsson' role, and hence wasn't getting the opportunities to be a penalty box striker.

Nice try W-R, but I never said a dickie-bird about HOW they PLAYED, in the games, just about EXPECTATIONS.

Are we now going to deny that we all thought Alf was brought in as a penalty-box poacher?

Of course he was! That's his best asset.

And I for one have been saying almost since he joined that he needs a "big lump" to play off.

And I did watch the games

Yes, Alf often came deep, too deep, probably because the mid-field was starving him,
but Church was still "the runner", and when you're out in the channels it's tough to score



Now we have Roberts, it would be interesting to see Alf alongside but I worry then that Roberts would jog around
as he has so far and Alf, instead of waiting for the flicks etc would end up busting a gut running down the channels

[Snowball]

^Ta.

You could just as easily say that Alf failed to stay high up the pitch
with Church and went ball-hunting (possibly against team orders)
and maybe that's why he was dropped.

Of course I don't know what his orders were but arguably,
you could say Alf spent too much time coming deep
and thus wasn't close enough to goal to convert chances.

He is (isn't he?) a penalty-box kinda guy? Haven't most of us
been surprised that he has more of a all-round game?

[Snowball]

And yes, I prefer Alf to Church

[Friday's Legacy]

not very good, no matter how you try and dress it up with any statistics.

[Snowball]

Appearances mask the truth

Here are the minutes and goals this season (including cups)



17 (6) 1,605 Minutes 6 Goals - - 268 Minutes per Goal - - (all games) Le Fondre

20 (7) 1,673 Minutes 6 Goals - - 279 Minutes per Goal - - (all games) Church

17 (8) 1,579 Minutes 3 Goals - - 526 Minutes per Goal - - (all games) Hunt



So if this is Church being "bad" and yet Le Fondre is only a tiny percentage better
and Hunt is almost 100% WORSE, why is Church being singled out for so much abuse?

[Snowball]

If you add in assists, Alf looks better, and Hunt doesn't look quite so bad

but in terms of goals...

[Extended-Phenotype]

Cos 3-6 goals, sporadic selection and different conditions are a great basis for drawing hard conclusions, isn’t it Einstein?

[Snowball]

Cos 3-6 goals, sporadic selection and different conditions are a great basis for drawing hard conclusions, isn’t it Einstein?

Jesus! I'm not saying Church is better. I'm saying that he is equal on goals
and extremely similar on minutes per goal (to ALF) and much better in
terms of goals and minutes per goal when measured against Hunt.

THEREFORE, people slamming Church are in denial of the facts
and are judging him on extremely fallible subjective grounds
and that the criticism is unfair and poorly-founded.


Just imagine for once that the world is not black-and-white
or put there for you to make yet another "clever" joke.