Mcd says we haven't got any cash....

[Barry the bird boggler]

Reading (and a handful of other clubs) do things the way things should be done.

Many clubs can't bothered as someone will always come out of the woodwork to save them.

Until UEFA/FIFA/FA/FL come down hard and put proper strict "abide by these or die" rules tightly governing clubs financial arrangements (and the people allowed to run clubs) we will forever be in this mess of watching the cheats ('cos that's what they are) achieve a short lived modicum of success before crashing and burning only to be taken over and the process start all over again.

Perhaps if some ground swell of fan opinion could be organised and the issue raised with local MPs then perhaps some law could be legislated in the long term (and let's face it that'll be the quickest way as the powers that be cannot be botherered to do anything serious about it).

[handbags_harris]

Almost every other club does not live within it's means.

And equally almost every other club hasn't gone out of business.

I'll tell you what, rob me ol' mucker, the ignorance you possess on this matter is pretty profound. There are a fair few clubs who have come pretty damn well close to going out of business. Portsmouth, Cardiff City, Southampton, Leeds United, Southend United, Accrington Stanley, Bradford City, Crystal Palace, Derby County, West Ham United, Nottingham Forest, Preston North End, Notts County, Exeter City, Swindon Town, Oxford United, AFC Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Port Vale, Bury, Stockport County, Luton Town, Hull City - they are just the names of clubs off the top of my head which currently have, or have had, for various reason, financial problems, some of them extremely serious. Some of them have massively overspent, some of them simply can't afford to sustain themselves at the level they are at, but the fact that none have actually ceased to exist in some cases is actually a bit of a red herring - technically they have ceased to exist. How often in the past 10-15 years did you see a club go into administration and then rise from the ashes in the guise of a new company name? Luton Town did it, Leeds United did it, Leicester City did it, Bradford City did it. The fact remains that a company has gone to the wall but the club remains due to a new company being created. I'm not sure what the regulations are on this now, Dirk can clarify I'm sure, but I think this is actually outlawed. But the clubs that now have financial problems and don't have this route to follow are in schtum unless someone is mug enough to buy the club and wipe the debts, something which has always happened up until now. One day though, it won't, and a football club will unless those in power (and fans with your apparent attitude) stop burying their collective heads in the sand and keep saying "oh but no club has gone bust has it?". By doing that you merely ignore the problem and let it fester, you don't solve it.

[rob the royal]

Almost every other club does not live within it's means.

And equally almost every other club hasn't gone out of business.

I'll tell you what, rob me ol' mucker, the ignorance you possess on this matter is pretty profound. There are a fair few clubs who have come pretty damn well close to going out of business. Portsmouth, Cardiff City, Southampton, Leeds United, Southend United, Accrington Stanley, Bradford City, Crystal Palace, Derby County, West Ham United, Nottingham Forest, Preston North End, Notts County, Exeter City, Swindon Town, Oxford United, AFC Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Port Vale, Bury, Stockport County, Luton Town, Hull City - they are just the names of clubs off the top of my head which currently have, or have had, for various reason, financial problems, some of them extremely serious. Some of them have massively overspent, some of them simply can't afford to sustain themselves at the level they are at, but the fact that none have actually ceased to exist in some cases is actually a bit of a red herring - technically they have ceased to exist. How often in the past 10-15 years did you see a club go into administration and then rise from the ashes in the guise of a new company name? Luton Town did it, Leeds United did it, Leicester City did it, Bradford City did it. The fact remains that a company has gone to the wall but the club remains due to a new company being created. I'm not sure what the regulations are on this now, Dirk can clarify I'm sure, but I think this is actually outlawed. But the clubs that now have financial problems and don't have this route to follow are in schtum unless someone is mug enough to buy the club and wipe the debts, something which has always happened up until now. One day though, it won't, and a football club will unless those in power (and fans with your apparent attitude) stop burying their collective heads in the sand and keep saying "oh but no club has gone bust has it?". By doing that you merely ignore the problem and let it fester, you don't solve it.

But more clubs are still running than have had problems - when you count out how many clubs there are it's not a huge list is it? And as you say a proportion of those have massively overspent.

I'm not saying that Reading FC should spend more money - I'm more than happy for the club to continue down this road IF IT HAS TO - but in my humble opinion the only reason it has to do so is because the Chairman has given up with football - not because it morally disgusts him but because it's not going to make him any money. I say fair enough - but if people want to complain about it - even if they do get their facts wrong you can hardly blame them and say that there is NO money to spend - I don't doubt there is no money to spend if you take the Club in isolation - but there is no way that SJM couldn't put more money in if he wanted to. He's managed to drag his printing company through the recession by pumping millions into it - and you can't tell me the only thing that he was going to put into that Reading town-centre development was his guidance and expertise (he just couldn't find enough over people who take his view that the recession won't last forever so there's no harm in investing now for then).

The money will flow to whatever opportunity he thinks is most likely to make a return - Reading FC is at the bottom of the list.

[Mad Dog's Ghost]

Agree with Rob.

This isn't SJMs moral crusade. It's business, pure and simple. No return means minimal investment ... although that might change if we're in the crap come January.

Handbags, I hope clubs like Pompey and some of the other profligate spenders get their comeuppance ... but it still hasn't happened, even when one of Portsmouth's creditors was the highest authority in the land. They were seriously looking at bringing in Kitson and lawrence from Stoke prior to league delaying their coming out of admin, current combined earnings about 50k a week. How the fck can they meet even half that ... but they would have done. It's football. Usual rules don't apply.

Look at Hull. Pay up time a month back. Re-mortgaged again with the same mob. No doubt they'll owe even more in two years time when that loan period runs out, but do you think they'll go under? Someone else will come along to take over the debt. They always do. Meanwhile, players and agents can carry on taking us all for a ride.

[westendgirl]

I'm not saying that Reading FC should spend more money - I'm more than happy for the club to continue down this road IF IT HAS TO - but in my humble opinion the only reason it has to do so is because the Chairman has given up with football - not because it morally disgusts him but because it's not going to make him any money. I say fair enough - but if people want to complain about it - even if they do get their facts wrong you can hardly blame them and say that there is NO money to spend - I don't doubt there is no money to spend if you take the Club in isolation - but there is no way that SJM couldn't put more money in if he wanted to. He's managed to drag his printing company through the recession by pumping millions into it - and you can't tell me the only thing that he was going to put into that Reading town-centre development was his guidance and expertise (he just couldn't find enough over people who take his view that the recession won't last forever so there's no harm in investing now for then).

The money will flow to whatever opportunity he thinks is most likely to make a return - Reading FC is at the bottom of the list.

That is your opinion but it could just be that he is currently asset rich but cash poor. I don't know the details of all the Chairman's investments but I do know that his high profile ones are in property. At the moment trying to realise your investment is very likely to lead to a loss, so holding on to it to wait for the economy to get moving again makes sense and it could just be that he doesn't have teh odd million or twenty hanging around to put into the club. It is certainly true that putting money into RFC cannot be said to be a good 'investment', as the joke goes to make a small fortune in football you need to start with a large one

Having said that what state has football come to when the players get paid so much that despite the tv deals a club can only survive with someone playing the sugar daddy.

[rob the royal]

That is your opinion but it could just be that he is currently asset rich but cash poor. I don't know the details of all the Chairman's investments but I do know that his high profile ones are in property. At the moment trying to realise your investment is very likely to lead to a loss, so holding on to it to wait for the economy to get moving again makes sense and it could just be that he doesn't have teh odd million or twenty hanging around to put into the club. It is certainly true that putting money into RFC cannot be said to be a good 'investment', as the joke goes to make a small fortune in football you need to start with a large one

Having said that what state has football come to when the players get paid so much that despite the tv deals a club can only survive with someone playing the sugar daddy.

Agree totally with what you're saying and I'm sure there is a lot of truth in what he says about being asset rich and cash poor - nevertheless he's had no problems dumping money into that printing company. Has he got 20 million hanging around in cash - no way.

Has he got the ability to find 1m I'd be extremely surprised if he couldn't. He spent 85 million turning around the printing company - that money has to come from somewhere? Presumably from one of his more successful ventures? I'm certainly not saying he should put money into the club or that it would be wise to do so - but I cannot see that he hasn't got the ability to do so. But the only way to know would be if you knew exactly what was going on with all of his companies and investments.

For that reason it is indeed just an opinion. Unless anyone has seen everything is there is to see no one can definitively say whether he can or can't put in a million quid. I reckon he can and if people want to complain about him not doing so then fine. Do I want him to? Sure. Do I think he ought to? Not really.

[RoyalBlue]

Almost every other club does not live within it's means.

And equally almost every other club hasn't gone out of business.

I'll tell you what, rob me ol' mucker, the ignorance you possess on this matter is pretty profound. There are a fair few clubs who have come pretty damn well close to going out of business. Portsmouth, Cardiff City, Southampton, Leeds United, Southend United, Accrington Stanley, Bradford City, Crystal Palace, Derby County, West Ham United, Nottingham Forest, Preston North End, Notts County, Exeter City, Swindon Town, Oxford United, AFC Bournemouth, Rotherham United, Port Vale, Bury, Stockport County, Luton Town, Hull City - they are just the names of clubs off the top of my head which currently have, or have had, for various reason, financial problems, some of them extremely serious.

And I have come close to having some nasty accidents in my life but didn't and am still healthy (probably to Rother and Yellow Coat's etc. disappointment). Lots of people have no doubt overstretched themselves financially and come close to losing their house. Some will have done . The vast majority survive and recover from the situation just as som many of those clubs you mentioned have or are doing so.

Madejski and his followers used to go on about Charlton being a model to aspire to. Well that model worked out effing well didn't it!!

Just as overspending in a business can harm it, so can chronic underinvestment and a failure to compete properly within the market it operates. Seems to me, Madejski and co are following that second route and they will damage the business by doing so.

[handbags_harris]

Just as overspending in a business can harm it, so can chronic underinvestment and a failure to compete properly within the market it operates. Seems to me, Madejski and co are following that second route and they will damage the business by doing so.

So what you are saying is that RFC should be more like many other clubs in that they spend above and beyond what it can afford at the expense of the chairman, or through external credit arrangements? See, this is what I don't understand. Just because these other clubs are doing what they are doing doesn't mean that it is right for us to do so. If being right means we happen to drop a division then so be it in my eyes, at least we can hold out heads up morally high knowing we tried to do something that was right in a world full of wrongs, and that is sincerely my view. People go on about the likes of Portsmouth as the extreme case, Cardiff City and many other clubs spending beyond their means and not being punished for it, yet at the same time they want RFC to spend money that it claims it doesn't have? Make your mind up guys, you can't have your cake and eat it!

[RoyalBlue]

Just as overspending in a business can harm it, so can chronic underinvestment and a failure to compete properly within the market it operates. Seems to me, Madejski and co are following that second route and they will damage the business by doing so.

So what you are saying is that RFC should be more like many other clubs in that they spend above and beyond what it can afford at the expense of the chairman, or through external credit arrangements? See, this is what I don't understand. Just because these other clubs are doing what they are doing doesn't mean that it is right for us to do so. If being right means we happen to drop a division then so be it in my eyes, at least we can hold out heads up morally high knowing we tried to do something that was right in a world full of wrongs, and that is sincerely my view. People go on about the likes of Portsmouth as the extreme case, Cardiff City and many other clubs spending beyond their means and not being punished for it, yet at the same time they want RFC to spend money that it claims it doesn't have? Make your mind up guys, you can't have your cake and eat it!

No need! Never heard of the middle way?!!! You can go into debt without threatening your future as most people with a mortgage or business loan know very well!

[rob the royal]

Handbags said to RoyalBlue:
So what you are saying is that RFC should be more like many other clubs in that they spend above and beyond what it can afford at the expense of the chairman, or through external credit arrangements?

This is where we differ. I have absolutely no problem with this. As for external credit? Good luck trying to get that for a football club and even if you can have fun trying to pay it back - so we're certainly agreed on that.

But if one (or two) of SJM's other ventures had to suffer because he was spending a million or two a year on Reading FC I personally wouldn't have a problem with that - so long as he didn't want it back.

But I'm sure he would want it back, and I'm sure he'd rather not throw money away 'keeping Reading competitive' when he can invest money elsewhere and get a profit in return. As I said that money that he threw at the printing company had to come from somewhere - and as he says he hasn't got a big bank account full of millions and millions of pounds, presumably he 'borrowed' from one of his other ventures knowing that he would eventually make the money back when the print business started making profits - as it apparently does.

So for me the real issue here is how much do we believe what SJM says about not being able to put together any significant financial resources because it's all tied up? I certainly believe it to an extent (and clearly I believe it more than Royal Blue) but I think it's a half-truth he's exagerrated.

If I'm right (and to be fair there's no reason to believe I am) but if I am right and SJM could bolster the wage bill I don't see why people like RB shouldn't complain about it. I think SJM is making a choice not to throw any more money down the plug hole - and that's fair enough. The thing is that in the past (when he thought he was going to make a killing out of selling a club with the potenial to be bigger than Arsenal ) he was prepared to pump the odd million in because he thought year on year if we got stronger then eventually we might get promoted - and it came earlier than he probably thought.

Now he knows he'll never get the kind of offer he wants there is no point investing - he'll sit tight now and wait for someone to come along and buy the club - the problem I have with the whole thing is if he gets over-zealous with his restricting the budgets we might end up going down when we, or rather HE could have avoided IMO.

[Hoop Blah]

Handbags, if we were to go down our revenues would go down significantly and we'd be in a worse situation financially and would probably struggle to shift a lot off the wage bill (apart from the obvious better players we'd soon lose).

We'd then probably go with the same policy again and be up shit creek.

[Terminal Boardom]

If we are bottom 3 at Christmas, expect BMcD to be given some money to get some players in that should keep us up. It happened last season.

[handbags_harris]

No need! Never heard of the middle way?!!! You can go into debt without threatening your future as most people with a mortgage or business loan know very well!

Are we not there already?

[PieEater]

As mentioned earlier, we are shadowing well club Charlton's plummet down the league. They followed the same cutting cloth path and ended up in league1.

[Sir Rodger Doyle]

As mentioned earlier, we are shadowing well club Charlton's plummet down the league. They followed the same cutting cloth path and ended up in league1.

At least thet have won a game this season.

[Mid Sussex Royal]

Most chairman get involved with football clubs due to love of the game and club - Madejski is not a football man - he has no affinity for football and doesn't even come from Reading.

He had a masterplan to get the club to a new stadium, develop the site (eg hotel) make money from it and sell on as a business venture.

It has failed and he is now stuck with an assset he cannot sell and get his money back.

football is an entertainment business - small sustainable losses are par for the course. You can count the football clubs on one hand that make a profit each year.

[Pseud O'Nym]

Most chairman get involved with football clubs due to love of the game and club -

Rubbish. Most get involved for self aggrandisement, a few because they think they can see an opportunity to make a fast buck.

Madejski is not a football man - he has no affinity for football and doesn't even come from Reading.

He had a masterplan to get the club to a new stadium, develop the site (eg hotel) make money from it and sell on as a business venture.

Nonsense. The state the club was in when he took it over the very idea of a new stadium, hotel, training facilities and academy would have been ridiculous. He rescued RFC because he wanted to become a local hero to the town for which he felt an affinity. Just like the Huntleys, Palmers and Suttons before him he wanted to cheat mortality by getting his name stuck on few buildings around the place, and what's so wrong with that?

It has failed and he is now stuck with an assset he cannot sell and get his money back.

football is an entertainment business - small sustainable losses are par for the course. You can count the football clubs on one hand that make a profit each year.

That is true.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

If we are bottom 3 at Christmas, expect BMcD to be given some money to get some players in that should keep us up. It happened last season.

Expect a new manager more likely.


JM will not take tyhe blame, he knows all the figures, and if he feels that BM has not used the money in a positive manner then the door will be shown. BM would leave without any ill will.

[glass half full]

If we are bottom 3 at Christmas, expect BMcD to be given some money to get some players in that should keep us up. It happened last season.

Expect a new manager more likely.


JM will not take tyhe blame, he knows all the figures, and if he feels that BM has not used the money in a positive manner then the door will be shown. BM would leave without any ill will.

Do I sense the makings of a car park demonstration?

[Royal Lady]

Reading McD's comments in the E-Po it wouldn't be surprising if one or two players go this transfer window still - Gylfi and Feds were the two mentioned in the paper as being the top two targets. And McD saying he's been looking a couple of players to bring in if that is the case. You can bet there won't be a striker so I suggest we're stuck with what we've got for a whole season.