Sin-bins to be discussed

[stealthpapes]

TBM, your suggestion would see a sharp increase in cynical fouls. This wouldn't be good for the game. Simple as that.

80th minute, cup tie, team is 1-0 up. Opposition attacker breaks through the line into the box. Why wouldn't a defender bring him down?

If they miss the resulting penalty, the team that is leading only has to play 10 minutes with 10 men. If they score - well he was through on goal and likely to score anyway. Risk worth taking and they have 10 minutes with 11 men to try to grab the lead again.

A penalty and a red card isn't 'punishing them twice', it's one punishment.

Last line - every foul is essentially punished twice. The free kick of whatever form and then the individual gets a talking to or a card or reacharound or whatever.

In some cases, many, many small niggling fouls will lead to a booking for persistent fouling. The one foul that did it might not be a yellow.

[TBM]

Link won't load for me - but the vast majority of red cards are worthy or within the rules, so I'm not sure what point you're making. Yes, a small number of red cards are issued wrongly. But that's it.

The point i'm making is the rules should be amended - hence the whole discussion we are having about sin-bins

[stealthpapes]

I think I'd rather see a better interpretation of the existing rules rather than something brought in that could well bring in all sorts of loopholes and unintended consequences.

I also don't think the problem you're perceiving is half as bad as all that.

[TBM]

Last line - every foul is essentially punished twice. The free kick of whatever form and then the individual gets a talking to or a card or reacharound or whatever.

In some cases, many, many small niggling fouls will lead to a booking for persistent fouling. The one foul that did it might not be a yellow.

I agree that every foul is essentially punished twice but why should someone be sent off for putting his hand on someones shoulder for a split second, just give the penalty and sin-bin the player for 10-15mins....

[Sanguine]

Last line - every foul is essentially punished twice. The free kick of whatever form and then the individual gets a talking to or a card or reacharound or whatever.

In some cases, many, many small niggling fouls will lead to a booking for persistent fouling. The one foul that did it might not be a yellow.

I agree that every foul is essentially punished twice but why should someone be sent off for putting his hand on someones shoulder for a split second, just give the penalty and sin-bin the player for 10-15mins....

Or don't commit the foul?

[TBM]

Last line - every foul is essentially punished twice. The free kick of whatever form and then the individual gets a talking to or a card or reacharound or whatever.

In some cases, many, many small niggling fouls will lead to a booking for persistent fouling. The one foul that did it might not be a yellow.

I agree that every foul is essentially punished twice but why should someone be sent off for putting his hand on someones shoulder for a split second, just give the penalty and sin-bin the player for 10-15mins....

Or don't commit the foul?

Really? - its that simple isn't it, come on, you've played football before

[Sanguine]

Then, as paps said, you are making this out to be a much bigger problem than it is.

Offences for which a penalty is awarded and a player sent off that in retrospect weren't really fouls? Quite rare.

Although sneaky shoulder and shirt pulls are exactly the sort of cynical fouls that deserve punishment.

[TBM]

Although sneaky shoulder and shirt pulls are exactly the sort of cynical fouls that deserve punishment.

By a red card?

[stealthpapes]

Although sneaky shoulder and shirt pulls are exactly the sort of cynical fouls that deserve punishment.

By a red card?

If they're in the position where they're completely stopping the other team from having a very good chance on goal, then yes.

Take the scenario from earlier in the thread. Keeper goes up for a corner, ball breaks and a player has a free run on the empty net. Last defender grabs his shirt and pulls him down. I think that's a red. If the keeper or another defender is back covering, it's not a red.

[TBM]

Although sneaky shoulder and shirt pulls are exactly the sort of cynical fouls that deserve punishment.

By a red card?

If they're in the position where they're completely stopping the other team from having a very good chance on goal, then yes.

Take the scenario from earlier in the thread. Keeper goes up for a corner, ball breaks and a player has a free run on the empty net. Last defender grabs his shirt and pulls him down. I think that's a red. If the keeper or another defender is back covering, it's not a red.

Keepers only really go up for a corner in the last minute when they're losing. So what will sending the player off achieve? - just sin-bin him and he'll miss the rest of the game anyway (rather than the next game where that opposition benefits). I'm thinking more for a player being sent off in the first half etc (ala Newcastle v Stoke that i posted earlier) and then the game just being a one sided goal fest

[stealthpapes]

[TBM]

I'm not saying you should get rid of the red card - i just reckon it should be more
yellow card -> sin-bin -> red card
or
sin-bin -> red card

Depending on the offence.

Anyway, its not just penalties - its also for players who get two "soft" yellow cards....refs these days seem to think that once they have handed out a yellow the next foul a player makes results in a red.

[Sanguine]

Again I think you're imagining a 'problem' worse than exists - Cabaye committed three fouls after his booking at the weekend, and stayed on the pitch, one was pretty late too.

[TBM]

Again I think you're imagining a 'problem' worse than exists - Cabaye committed three fouls after his booking at the weekend, and stayed on the pitch, one was pretty late too.

There you go then - the ref obviously didn't want to send him off but then he's just getting away with the offence.....if there was the option of a sin-bin, then no doubt Cabaye would have been in it for that "pretty late" one

[southbank1871]

There's an argument for two yellow cards to result in a sin-bin (IMO), but not when a clear goalscoring opportunity has been prevented.

"Being punished twice" is the sort of nonsense that idiotic ex-pro pundits come out with. Your Chris Waddles, your Niall Quinns etc.

[TBM]

There's an argument for two yellow cards to result in a sin-bin

Apparently there isn't

[Sanguine]

Again I think you're imagining a 'problem' worse than exists - Cabaye committed three fouls after his booking at the weekend, and stayed on the pitch, one was pretty late too.

There you go then - the ref obviously didn't want to send him off but then he's just getting away with the offence.....if there was the option of a sin-bin, then no doubt Cabaye would have been in it for that "pretty late" one

Or maybe the referee didn't deem the pretty late one worthy of a second yellow card.

You're trying to argue both sides of the fence here.

[stealthpapes]

I'm not saying you should get rid of the red card - i just reckon it should be more
yellow card -> sin-bin -> red card
or
sin-bin -> red card

Depending on the offence.

Anyway, its not just penalties - its also for players who get two "soft" yellow cards....refs these days seem to think that once they have handed out a yellow the next foul a player makes results in a red.

Really?

Anyway, that's an issue with refs interpretation of the rules and I refer back to:

I think I'd rather see a better interpretation of the existing rules rather than something brought in that could well bring in all sorts of loopholes and unintended consequences.

[TBM]

What about if a player dives?

Is a yellow card harsh enough?
Red is too harsh
How about sending them off the pitch for 15mins?

It may help deter players from doing it

[stealthpapes]

The issue there is that it happens too fast for the ref to really follow.

So,

WRT gamesmanship stuff - I'd have a panel of a few ex-refs and respected ex-players and managers to review such incidents and hand out one match bans after the event, with them having to justify their decision. Bans doubled for failed and/or frivolous appeals. Allow managers one opportunity to suggest an event from the game, but the rest comes from the panels own decisions (and, yes, what is in the news) and make it a bit transparent about the decisions made.